Safety at meets

[Locky]

I've been talking to several people about this today, namely Becky, Q, Sprog, Naz and Stevie. Basically a gym meet over the weekend has raised some concerns about our own safety at meets, and this includes outdoor meets as well. As the person doing most of the organising for Capital Bocking this year, I feel it is absolutely critical we get this sorted.

I wasn't present at the meet and so the only information I have is that people attempted flips and got injured. The example I want to use is Janelle because I care for her a great deal and the result is possibly threatening her doing the Walk for life, which is very important for her.
Now I'm not going to emphasize on joe's (soul rancher) accident so much because joe is at the stage where he knows the risks. He can already backflip and has overcome many of the mental barriers needed for such things. In hindsight, someone should have been there with a mat to slide under him if something went wrong but as I said, joe knows the risks more than others do. Even so, Joe was inches away from permanent paralysis.

From what I can tell, the meet this past weekend was attended by members from several groups and had a lot of fun, but I think the excitement clouded the safety responsibilities.

I really hope jelly doesnt take this in offence but as someone who is responsible for others at gym meets, I absolutely would not allow anyone to attempt a flip onto thin gym mats until they are landing them 80+% of the time on the crash mat. Maybe jelly is at this stage but I am not aware of her landing any flips.
Injuries do happen in this sport but I think it is crucial we get together a list or document of "Best Practices for meet ups" together asap. This is something we would have put together as an ongoing project for the national association but with meets happening all the time now, and the good weather here already, it clearly needs addressing now.

The last thing I want is for this to cause any bad air between anyone. I dont know who organised the meet on the weekend, if there was any ground crew or if anyone was overseeing safety etc but this really isnt about one meet that ended in a few injuries. It's about all of us and making sure we avoid such injuries as much as possible.
This is important not only for our lives and bodies but also for our sport.
It can take only one accident for a hall manager to kick us out. One article of bad press that could cause ongoing problems for us all.

We need to get this right and we need to do it now.

[Charlie B]

Agree totally

[webmaster]

I totally agree with you on this Matt, and I think it’s an excellent post which I think everyone needs to contribute to, to make sure a set of guidelines are agreed on by the majority and adhered to, remember the sport is new, and if we want to make it mainstream and take it further in terms of getting funding etc then getting the “boring” but in my opinion the most important things such as safety guidelines are paramount and need to be set as a matter of urgency.

I think the gym meet yesterday highlighted many factors which would have come up at some point anyway however just happened when they did all in one session! Instead of dwelling on what has happened in a sense of negativity, it’s an opportunity for everyone to sit up and take notice as I think it could have been a lot worse and if it was then we would all have had to take notice.

So let’s not wait till someone has a bad injury before we start bouncing ideas on how and what needs to be in place to ensure that bocking is a lot safer.

[Paul-Self]

yeh i totally agree a lot of it is knowing your limits and to be blunt if i had never done gymnastics / trampo i doubt very highly i would have got into the sport / attempted flips etc. A lot of the injuries from people trying stuff they have not done b4 could be helped a bit if they would at least get comfortable on a trampoline doing it i have seen quite a few vids of people trying fronts and just practically coming down on their neck as they have never tried it before and are now trying it on stilts which is a hell of a lot harder than doing it on a trampoline! but with all sports their is a risk element involved as in Joe's case he landed a back to back 5minutes before he landed on his back its one of those things that will happen trying harder moves!

but totally agree with ure post locky!

 

[toddy]

i do agree as well we need to work on a code of safty for meets etc

and as for me i am wanting to try more tricks and it is just the nerve for me, as i dont want to get hurt, but i think about it too much i think.

[sprog]

I think this meet highlighted a lot of issues that we haven't really taken notice of recently.
Like Matt said, I have never seen or heard of Jelly landing a flip so she should not have been allowed to do them on gymnastic mats. Joe should not have gone for that double back onto hard ground until he is landing 9 out of 10 of them onto crash mats.
People need to stop running and slow back down to walking, taking it at a gradual pace. Yes people are advancing faster now amd I think that pushing each other is good, but it should be done sensibly, rather than going for things like this.
If you're going to be attempting new tricks I think from now on you should have a spotter and someone ready to slide a crash mat underneath you.
I know when we do things at the JJ meets we do silly things and have a laugh but I feel a lot of that is from the trust we have gained from knowing eachother for well over a year and knowing our own and friends limits, and we know what is safe to do and what isn't. I think partially we may be to blame for this as a lot of our gym videos have a bit of stupidity and fun in, but we know what we're doing and what is and isn't safe for each individual member to attempt. We know Colin feels ill after flipping so he doesn't do flips, I know I don't feel confident jumping things so I will only do what I feel safe with, if people try to push us we will say no and stay where we know we won't get injured.

Basically PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE progress at a slower rate, for your own and other people's safety, and only do things you are 100% confident on.

I am not saying anything was at all the fault of the club organising this meet or the gym owners, but the fact everyone got caught up in the moment and forgot what is safe and what isn't.

[toddy]

yea i see where you are comming from sprog and agree as i have been bocking for over a year now and only just started to trick, and opal is at the same level as me and he has only been at it for 2-3months now.

i will have a full cut of what happened at the gym and it wont have the fall in it but it will have jellys bit in if i can find it or filmed it

i think we all should have a group chat so we can lay down ideas etc? and then once it is done we can post ideas what we have and work on that

[Dark Knight]

i will have a full cut of what happened at the gym and it wont have the fall in it but it will have jellys bit in if i can find it or filmed it

I've filmed two falls and true they could help others I think you should ask them before posting !?
Gym's should be a good safe place to push yourself as long as you follow the rule of common sense.

Some of us could do with a push to try new things but others need to be pulled back for the own good !
The trick would be know who need what !?

[webmaster]

Some of us could do with a push to try new things but others need to be pulled back for the own good !
The trick would be know who need what !?

This is something that Ash (sprog) touches on, the JJ's and the Welshy's have come to a stage where they know the limitations of each other and also know when members can be pushed a little harder, so this is something that groups need to work on together, by taking a step back and helping each other develop gradually, which means automatically with time people will know the limitations of each member of the group and push or stop each other depending on what the individual needs.

 

[Charlie B]

The development of the association haas happened at the right time. The development of good coaching and safety practice must now be a priority

When organising a session the following must be considered

The aptitude of the participant(s)
What is the technique to be coached /Learned
What skills are required
How how are these skills going to be coached /learned
How are you going to progress the learning
What equipment is needed
What risks are there to the participant & contingencies to manage

This is not an exhaustive list but some where to start

[Brendan (NeoNinja)]

What form are these guidelines going to take? A lot of it's just common sense, it doesn't really need writing down. And even if it were, there's no way of policing it... I'm not even sure it should be policed. Rules and restrictions would limit the feeling of self-expression.

As you've said above. People just need to know there limits (and heed the advice of their friends). But even then, people will get injured.

Is it going to be made as a booklet or rule book? And would they be rules or just guidelines/suggestions?

[Jelly]

I totally agree to what everyone has said here on this thread. I am not experienced at somersaults and realise the dangers that are involved with doing so. I know that there should have been someone to spot me as im inexperienced and can not yet land somi's. I also know that because i can not land them that there should have been more than just 1 crash mat, which is where my problem arose.
Soul rancher (joe) had been using the crash mat before i attempted my somersault and because he has more experience, he didnt need the extra mat. I didnt realise my mistake until i had my accident, i didnt realise there was just 1 mat there because i was caught up in the moment, if i had realised i wouldnt have taken the leap of faith. I know that 2 mats would have been safer for me at my level and would only ever attempt it with 2 mats and no less.
It was a mistake on my part for not taking notice but i think that it could have been dealt with and organisined a lot better. Not blaming anyone for what happened to me, as i know for a fact that the same thing happened to muncher and blaze when we went to another gym meet a couple of months back, but luckily their injuries were'nt as bad as mine, grrrr.
We should definitely outline some ground rules and regulations for all bockers, so similar things like this dont happen again and that the health and safety of the bocking community is looked after and that we can gain respect from the outside world and be recognised as a fun, exciting sport and not a dangerous one that is to be avoided.

jelly x

[Charlie B]

The thing about common sense is that it is not that common.

The difference between guidelines and regulations depends on the possibility of injury and also your age. If you are under 18 the organiser is legally responsible for you. You are not deemed in law to be sufficiently mature to be totally responsible for your own actions. This is the situation whatever you believe as to your own maturity if you are u18.

If you are over 18 you are in law responsible for your own actions.

For example if you wanted to put your hand in a fire the response would be

U18 : remove you from the area & extinguish the fire
Over 18 : advise against the action pointing out that that would cause skin damage and hurt and was an irresponsible act.

Even with adults getting caught up in the moment can have consequences. providing action points for people to follow helps mitigate risks.

[Brendan (NeoNinja)]

The thing about common sense is that it is not that common.

lol.

[stevie]

Locky You'v just about said it all there, and we all wish Jelly and Soul Rancher a speedy recovery,

Locky, it may be an idea to post a list of checks for meets, like the use of sliding slip matts you mentioned, and the role of ground crew,there are many more, it could be that not all people know the techneque that we use,but if it was made in simple and in easy steps with no short cuts it may be an answer for the short term that could be a help for others, and groups that are just starting up i think they would realy respect such a list,

 i hope that none of your or my coments are taken the wrong way by anyone, if so i am sorry and i apologise,and nobody has the right to tell another what they should or not do, its just that you can't teach someone experience, but you can share it, and like you said, its for there own protection and the good of the sport.

[Charlie B]

Stevie

use of check lists is a great idea, do you have some that could be shared ?

[Joe Legg]

2 thing to start off with. yep i agree with everything and i think alot of it was everyone was buzzing with excitment and was trying new thing and that what caused most damage.

secoundly what sprog said
 'Joe should not have gone for that double back onto hard ground until he is landing 9 out of 10 of them onto crash mats.' personally my aim was to land on the mat but when doing back to backs i do them in the same spot and normally fall back onto the mats.
and yes i should of had a mat slider but like i said i was just caught up in it all and was trying new things.

2ndly im one of those people that practice and push myself to the max and is very competative  (this can be good but also very bad as you have probably all seen)
but by hurting myself is the only way i learn, and is my way of telling myself to slow down and practice more.

i would also like to say in what ever sport you do you will hurt youself at some point, sometimes worse than others. but the danger risk can be reduced with the right safty rules and regulations for each more of trick tryed. (so what matts saying need to be taken)

thats all i have to say.

 

[Jason]

I agree that safety is very important and the list idea is a good one (I'm sure it will be added to as we find new ways to have accidents  )

I must though speak up in defence of Opal I think he did a great job and would go to another of there meets again

He did organize the meet very well and there were plenty of crash mats and lots of discusion about the safest place to put them when someone was doing anything exotic 

From what I can gather Jelly didnt realise she was jumping onto 1 mat until it was to late (we all make mistakes) hope it feels better soon Jelly and we will carry you round walk for life on a stretcher if needs be 

And anyone that has Bocked next to Joe will know that short of Nailing his Bl**dy feet to the ground you won't stop him having an accident  I mean he went over at least twice in the pub garden thats why he has had such a metioric rise in skill he takes it all the way (hope the aches arn't to bad Joe  )

I have only been to a couple of gym meets and I must say that safety on the whole has always been a high priority yet I managed to nearly break my neck trying a flip when I was tired (my own fault and all safety measures were being used )

So do make safety a priority but remember accidents do happen however many safety precautions you put up (short of saying don't bock in the first place) and we don't want to stifle the free spirit of the sport to much

Jason 

[Becky]

Joe this thread isnt aimed at you, but your accident brought to light how easy it is for all bockers, even experienced ones, to have accidents. You are old enough and experienced enough to be able to make choices which may end up with you injuring yourself, but someone could have pointed out to you that a mat thrown in under you may have been a good idea. Whether you took up the offer or not is up to you.

Simple things like this could save you from unecessary injury, so making your progress faster!

We need to look at simple ways of limiting the risks to bockers in the gym, and showing that we are a responsible sport.

This thread needs to discuss the different things people can think of that will keep all bockers safe in gym sessions.

Something like:
We need to make sure that we watch each other and if anyone thinks something looks unsafe they need to say so
Mats need to be stopped from slipping as much as possible
Everyone needs to be aware of other bockers around them
Adequate safety gear needs to be worn whilst bocking
You need to take time to learn tricks and ask for help from those around you if you think you may need it
Experienced bockers need to offer advice and help whenever possible
Know your own limits and only push yourself as far as you feel is safe
Safety rules or guidelines that you operate at your gym need to be explained to new people or visitors to the gym

[stevie]

Soul Rancher, i don't think anything was aimed at anyone mate, Its clear to see that you are right up there with the big guns, and an inspiration to the people you train with, i am looking farward myself to meeting you, and your skill level will enhance our gym, i cant wait to see you in action,

i can speak thrugh experience, i have been injured, and seen some nasty stuf from the guys in our team, thats how we learned, thrugh pain, sweat, and blood, when Brucie did his first back flip ther was no such thing as gym meets for us in them days, it was just him and me on a field, he wanted it so bad, so we padded him up as best we could, even a helmet, As daft as it seems, we didn't even know about knee pads, but i had guest that the knee must be secured into place so i made knee supports out of soundproof foaming, and we used skate board gear for protection, remember this had never been done before in the uk, so we didnt know any better, i was practicaly underneath him the whole time, and then wow, he did it,

the point is that in those days there was no one to advice us on how it could be done safe, not that flips are safe, but im sure you know what i mean, and you remind me of him,with your determination, please take that as a highest compliment, there are not many i would say that to,as i hold Brucie, as most do, in the highest regard,

becouse of people like Brucie and you,we now have ways to look at safer ways of doing things, and i think that is aimed at people who are learning new tricks /stunts, and in this sport we will all,always be learning, and your right in saying we learn from mistakes, most will always respect there own common sence, and the few that take it to the xtreme will always be looked up to, but i have found that sometimes in life its always nice to hear a word of wisdome or direction from an elder, even if it only makes you think about it, if that makes sence,

your going to be at the top of this sport one day soon, so stay safe, and i hope to meet you in person at the gym, we'l have a lot to chat about, thats when Reon has finished with you,lol.

 

[stevie]

Soul Rancher, i don't think anything was aimed at anyone mate, Its clear to see that you are right up there with the big guns, and an inspiration to the people you train with, i am looking farward myself to meeting you, and your skill level will enhance our gym, i cant wait to see you in action,

i can speak thrugh experience, i have been injured, and seen some nasty stuf from the guys in our team, thats how we learned, thrugh pain, sweat, and blood, when Brucie did his first back flip ther was no such thing as gym meets for us in them days, it was just him and me on a field, he wanted it so bad, so we padded him up as best we could, even a helmet, As daft as it seems, we didn't even know about knee pads, but i had guest that the knee must be secured into place so i made knee supports out of soundproof foaming, and we used skate board gear for protection, remember this had never been done before in the uk, so we didnt know any better, i was practicaly underneath him the whole time, and then wow, he did it,

the point is that in those days there was no one to advice us on how it could be done safe, not that flips are safe, but im sure you know what i mean, and you remind me of him,with your determination, please take that as a highest compliment, there are not many i would say that to,as i hold Brucie, as most do, in the highest regard,

becouse of people like Brucie and you,we now have ways to look at safer ways of doing things, and i think that is aimed at people who are learning new tricks /stunts, and in this sport we will all,always be learning, and your right in saying we learn from mistakes, most will always respect there own common sence, and the few that take it to the xtreme will always be looked up to, but i have found that sometimes in life its always nice to hear a word of wisdome or direction from an elder, even if it only makes you think about it, if that makes sence,

your going to be at the top of this sport one day soon, so stay safe, and i hope to meet you in person at the gym, we'l have a lot to chat about, thats when Reon has finished with you,lol.

 

[Opal]

I really hope jelly doesnt take this in offence but as someone who is responsible for others at gym meets, I absolutely would not allow anyone to attempt a flip onto thin gym mats until they are landing them 80+% of the time on the crash mat. Maybe jelly is at this stage but I am not aware of her landing any flips.

Whilst I agree with the basis of what this thread is trying to achieve, safety, I'd rather the thread wasn't based on incorrect information. To clarify, the flip area consisted of 5 thick crash mats. This was later changed to 4 and reconfigured because it was actually safer to have 1 less mat and have the whole area double thickness. As far as I was aware, what happened to jelly was an unfortunate misconfiguration of the mats (i.e. single thickness & they came apart as she landed), hence the reconfiguration afterwards. The coming apart of the mats actually happened to me too, but as I didn't attempt a flip on single thickness crash mats my fall was partially broken and I didn't sustain the same injuries as Jelly.

At no time did anyone attempt a flip onto a thin gym mat. In fact, it might have been beneficial in Joe's case had he tried to land his double back flip with at least a thin mat.

I am not saying anything was at all the fault of the club organising this meet or the gym owners, but the fact everyone got caught up in the moment and forgot what is safe and what isn't.

From what I can tell, the meet this past weekend was attended by members from several groups and had a lot of fun, but I think the excitement clouded the safety responsibilities.

At no time did irresponsibility reign. The accidents that occurred were VERY unfortunate. However, for people who were not present to say that anyone forgot what is safe apart from those actually performing is simply unfair. There comes a time when people must be responsible for their own actions i.e. look before you leap!

I must though speak up in defence of Opal I think he did a great job and would go to another of there meets again

He did organize the meet very well and there were plenty of crash mats and lots of discusion about the safest place to put them when someone was doing anything exotic

Thanks Jason. I'd like to point out that Jason and I, Toddy & Carma spent a lot of time making sure that crash mats were together and safe, across the 3 stunt areas that we had. I also noticed Jason's friend and bbmthbloke moving mats in the interests of safety (moving the crash mat nearer to the vault horse).

So do make safety a priority but remember accidents do happen however many safety precautions you put up (short of saying don't bock in the first place) and we don't want to stifle the free spirit of the sport to much

Amen, and if we can take further measures to prevent accidents like this occurring then of course we're all for it.

I hope that the message taken forward from here is "Accidents can happen despite best endevours, so follow this guide to ensure saftey" rather than "Make sure you follow this guide rather than getting caught up in excited delirium". Even if you use the latter, let it be known that safety always has been, and always will be #1 priority at IBz Gyms.

[Locky]

No need to get defensive Opal, I clearly stated I wasnt there and was basing my opinion on what others had said. There was a thread started on pp that said Janelle tried to do a flip on a thin gym mat.

This discussion is not questioning anyones organisation or safety responsibilites.

[webmaster]

Before locky posted this, he did think a few people may get upset or feel it was a post aimed at them, but in all honestly I know it wasn’t. He thought long and hard before he posted it and discussed it with many people before hand.

The aim of the post isn’t to have a go at any of the people injured or the organisers, there were people of all ability at the meet and as mentioned by various people attending, safety was thought about at all times, before and during the meet. IMO this could have happened at any meet regardless of where it was held.

However what came out of this was even when safety was thought about, accidents do and will  occur but we need to think about as many precautions / guidelines as possible  to help organisers and bockers to get the most out of bocking while staying injury free.

At the end of the day, any guidelines agreed upon by the Powerbocking communities will just be that “guidelines” / "suggestions" it would be up to the individuals / groups to take them on board but they won’t be forced on anyone and as Jason put it the last thing any guidelines would want to do is  to stifle the free spirit of the sport.

I feel this is a topic we need to discuss together, throw your ideas about but please let's not get into an argument over what’s already happened and said, instead let’s focus on what the best advise you all can give each other, that will help complete newbie’s to even the most extreme bockers, remember no one is invincible and if the likes of Mik from Swebounce can get badly injured anyone can, so anything we can put together to even prevent a minor accident is worth discussing.

[Opal]

No need to get defensive Opal

You have no reason to get defensive either Locky. I wasn't having a go at you, but the initial post (which happened to be yours) encapsulated an amount of falacious material that I wanted putting right for the sake of IBz. At no time did I think I was being personally attacked, nor are you being so, but some of what was said could be and I felt was misconstrued.

I don't know the PP website, so I haven't had the (mis)fortune of reading that thread.

I wholeheartedly agree with the rationale this thread is based upon, and of course there are lessons to be learned whenever any accident occurs in any situation. Working in the NHS teaches you that if nothing else. If everyone collectively can make some sort of safety guide / checklist then it's for the benefit of everyone. As others have said, this is probably long overdue, and it might well have helped to avoid some of the accidents that occurred.